Thoughts on the Origin of our "God" Ideas - A Discussion with Stefan Molyneux

I had the opportunity recently to talk with Stefan Molyneux during one of his "Sunday Morning Call-in Shows".  You can find that discussion here starting at 34:20. 

I know that what I cover in this discussion may challenge the beliefs of many of my family and friends with respect to our ideas about "heaven" and about "God". Furthermore, there are implications for those who are more oriented towards "spiritual" experiences or practices, although I do not go into that with this particular discussion.

Nevertheless, in the past year or so I have come to question all of this. I have become more focused on who and what we are as Human Beings "only"; i.e. as highly evolved biological organisms on this planet.  At the root of my feelings surrounding all of this is that As Long as We Keep Comparing Ourselves to some "Spiritual Ideal" that may only be a remnant of our early developmental experience, and we put ourselves down or allow ourselves to be diminished in a myriad of ways - if we keep feeling "condemned" by the "problematic nature of human existence", then we will not completely Own, Honor, and, most importantly, Be Completely Responsible For our overall functioning and relating here with Each Other, On This Planet and in This World. In other words, if we keep "meditating on ourselves" as "falling short" then we will not be as motivated to continue to strive to reach our full potential as Ordinary Human Beings, who, in my mind, happen to be Truly Extraordinary biological organisms - capable of both amazing and terrible things! 

For anyone who persists in the ideas that, as human beings, we are "inherently sinful" or "born of sin", or even secularists who have a generally negative view of human beings, I'm offering something to counter all of that by suggesting a possible source of where each of us as individuals got those ideas into our heads in the Very First Place. As I discuss with Stefan, those ideas could have arisen spontaneously in the hearts and minds of every human being who has ever lived, who has ever been in the womb and then been born, and experienced the biochemical patterns associated with all of those experiences. I am coming to the conclusion that the "latent memories" the "intuitions" that are the expression of those biochemical patterns are what we then "project" into the outer world as gods, and demons, and stories of heaven. Furthermore, I would offer that it is even tied to our "projection" of anthropomorphic consciousness onto other living (or even non-living) beings, whether plant or animal, which is the source of animistic religions.

It is not easy for me to stand in place with what I am saying, knowing, that if people really pay attention, they will realize I'm challenging a huge, huge, entrenched history of religious and "spiritual" dogma and dharma, and anthropology, even across all past and present cultures. Some people may think I'm just "trying to be confrontational or controversial." I assure you, that is not the case. I am sharing what I feel are the insights that have come to me fairly spontaneously, and if you thoroughly review the previous posts in this blog, you will see where some of the tendrils of the roots of these ideas first took hold.

There is another reason why I am sharing all of this though, in spite of the reactions it might provoke from some.  Almost all of my life, up until the last year or so, I have been a "believer" myself. From my early Christian upbringing to my more recently becoming a formal devotee of "spiritual master" Adi Da Samraj. In between, I moved around the "metaphysical" communities and drew many ideas from the scientific principles of quantum physics, etc., etc. I have probably been more inclined to believe in reincarnation through all of this than I have in "heaven" and/or "hell" and Adi Da's Wisdom-Teaching on these subjects continued to reinforce and elaborate on many of those ideas.

However, in a very passionate discussion I had with Paul K. Chappell, many months ago, he posed a simple question to me: "But, Lori...What if this is it?  What if human beings only have one life to live here and that's it?" In other words, for all the human beings who suffer abuse, depravity, etc., etc., that's It for them. That is all they will know of what it is like to be a human being. There is no coming back. No getting it better next time. No heaven after they die. As Paul pointed out, it still makes sense to do everything each of us can both individually and collectively to make this the very best experience of being human any of us can have, and that means doing whatever we can to make the world, This Incredible World we live in a better place for current and future generations, in part because, as the Incredible Biological Organisms that we are...we Can Do That.

Alternatively, we can also keep going down the path we are on, more or less consciously (usually less) seeking romantic and spiritual biochemical highs that are generated internally, or we can seek chemical highs from all kinds of other external sources of drugs or experiences that stimulate or modulate our internal biochemistry. We can continue to let our lower biological functioning as it relates to our drives for eating, mating, protecting territory, etc. continue to rule the higher levels of our functioning that allow us to become "self-aware", or we can more consciously develop and use the tools that our more developed brains give us to more effectively, consciously, and rationally manage all of our lower impulses and learn better how to voluntarily cooperate with rather than compete with everyone around us.

But, I am growing more convinced, if we persist in "projecting" from our own experience a necessarily naive point of view, of some "ideal" state that is Not that of being an ordinary human being, based in our most infantile experience and misinterpretation of our lives As human beings; if we do not Get Over That, then we will also be trapped there, individually and culturally, never able to move ahead in our otherwise TRULY INCREDIBLE CAPACITIES as VERY HIGHLY EVOLVED ORGANISMS on this planet.

I do agree with many from all camps, that there is a necessary Shift that needs to take place, and, in many ways, I feel it already is. I know it has with me. However, I do not necessarily agree with all in terms of the Direction of that "shift". Where some may think we need to better develop our (religious) "morality" or our (metaphysical) "spirituality" - I would say we need to focus more on our Humanity and our (biologically unique?) Capacity for Self-awareness and Rationality. Everything else has brought us to where we are now, but I do not believe retreating to a prior state, the state of infantile "oneness with everything" or even further to the "heaven" of the womb where "all of our needs are met with no effort of our own" is going to Move Us Forward in our evolution as Biological Organisms on this planet.

Follow-up - 12-14-2013

Through comments posted in response to the original YouTube video of this discussion, no longer available, I have been made aware that Ken Wilbur has some things to add to this consideration with his description of what he calls "The Pre-Trans Fallacy".  This is a short video where he talks about it.

Although I was not familiar with these particular elements of Ken Wilbur's work before, I can see where there is definitely some overlap with my own ideas, and I really appreciate the person who brought this to my attention in the comments. Such is the power of the internet in helping to tie all of our minds and thoughts together.

What Is So "Imperfect" about Being a Human Being?

In The Biology of "Omnipotence" I propose the idea that our first experiences as infants outside of the womb leave us with a feeling of "omnipotence"; i.e. when we feel uncomfortable for any reason we may cry and then, somewhat magically, our needs are taken care of (if we are experiencing normal, functional care from our primary caregivers). Since we do not experience a clear distinction between ourselves and those around us at this time, I have made the assumption that we probably feel "omnipotent"; we feel fairly "one with" and "in control of" the forces around us. And even if we do not feel completely "omnipotent" we may presume that those around us have such power.

I totally appreciate that human cognition at this early stage is quite undeveloped, however, what I am emphasizing is the fact that there is all kinds of biochemistry going on surrounding the experience of discomfort and relief. And, furthermore, it has already been determined by developmental research, that children do not begin to experience "separation anxiety" until they are around two to three years old; i.e. when they begin to recognize that they are not actually "one with" their caregivers.

My suggestion is this: If we experience our early infancy as some kind of Ideal State of Omnipotence and Power, then as we actually mature, we experience a Reduction in those experiences, we feel a Loss of Control, a Loss of the Feeling of "Oneness" with those around us, and it is this degradation of our own experience that begins to set-up our judgment of our overall experience of being an (apparently) separate individual, with, in reality, very little control over the world around us, at least while we are still very young. Furthermore, to the degree our parents and other adult caregivers do have the control in our lives, do have the power, we continue to see them as more "godlike" with all kinds of associated "projections", again, coming from our own direct experience of feelings of omnipotence.

I am beginning to come to the conclusion that it is these earliest experiences, first of feelings of omnipotence and then of feelings of impotence, that set-up our judgments about our experience of Being Human, of Being a seemingly separate individual from all other individuals and being "separate" from a godlike "source" of power. We presume that such a "source" must exist and must be "omnipotent" because that is coming from Our Own Early Infant Experiences and Perceptions of Ourselves. And this is so very important to understand because: Anything Less Than That Is Seen as 'Imperfect', whether that is an "imperfection" in ourselves or an "imperfection" in the people and world around us.

I really feel this is something that Has to Be Considered as it sets the foundation for so much of how we have been defining ourselves as human beings, pretty much throughout our history and even, I would offer, our pre-history. If this experience of "omnipotence" and "oneness" are simply latent memories of our own early infancy, and this has been part of the developmental experience of all human beings, all hominids who have had the capacity for self-awareness, self-reflection, and projection, since the beginning, then we have to reevaluate ALL of our concepts of "perfection", and what it means to be more (or less) "like God", or "Jesus", or whomever we imagine to be "more perfect" than ourselves.

However, if we are able to Let Go Of All of these idealizations, then we might, we just might, have the opportunity to consider just how amazing we truly are as Ordinary Human Beings! Given the course of Life and evolution, we are Truly Amazing Organisms, with relatively extraordinary capacities compared to pretty much every other organism on this planet. As long as we keep measuring ourselves (and others, and the world) against some exaggerated ideal that stems from our misperceptions as infants, then I fear we will never realize our full potential, we will never experience satisfaction in the amazing function of all of our capacities, and we will never begin to Accept Full Responsibility for Who and What we Truly Are and what we are capable of as Ordinary Human Beings!

As for me, I am done with any ideas or attitudes about "perfection", whether human or spiritual. As I counseled myself many, many years ago, there is only one thing "perfect" I can be and that is to be a "Perfect Me". I am a unique individual. I am the only one who can set the standard of what a "Lori Lee Bell" should be. My name is the only label that truly Fits "Me", and in every moment I am already being the very best "Me" I can Be. Doesn't mean I do not strive to maximize my potential as an Ordinary Human Being who happens to actually be a pretty extraordinary organism on this planet, but I have no other "'spiritual' ideals" to which I aspire. And I Am Content with that. And I Am Content with all of the variations of already "perfect" human beings around me, and the already "perfect" world in which I live. I accept the Play of Life on this planet and all of the static and Dynamic forces that have brought it to be what it is today - as far as we know - also fairly unique in the vast expanse of the universe. I am no longer "seeking"; I am Already Happy, Already Content. Whatever actions I take now are as an Expression of my Already Present Happiness, not a striving for it - or a striving for some human or "spiritual" ideal that I conceived of as an infant.

I am a "Perfect Me" and that is the only thing "perfect" I Will Ever Be!

No Problem Being Human - Lots of Problems "Growing Up"

I listened to a discussion between Stefan Molyneux and Stephanie Murphy recently on the use of corporal punishment when raising children. (Here's the link: Stephanie Murphy Corporal Punishment). I think the one thing that really stuck with me had to do with the ideas held by (many?) who follow Biblical instructions (mostly Old Testament), that (to paraphrase): Children are born "evil" and, therefore, have to have the "evil" beaten out of them. Furthermore, Stefan made the point that it is very difficult for the parents with this mindset to "withhold the rod" because they are convinced that the child's very soul and their "eternal salvation" hang in the balance.  So, it is really quite sad: the parents are trying to be helpful to their children and yet the scientific research is now showing just how detrimental punishment, especially physical punishment, really is for the brain development and the overall emotional psychological development of children.

For years now I have held the belief that what some see as issues of human "morality" are actually issues of human "development."  For instance, with a truly loving, peaceful, and supportive environment, children naturally develop a capacity for empathy by the time they are five or six years old. However, if the child is significantly traumatized prior to that age, then there is a very high risk of "arrested development"; in other words, the child gets "stuck" in their emotional and psychological development while their cognitive and physical development may continue more or less normally.

From my observations, I think a LOT of people get "stuck" around three-and-a-half to four-and-a-half years of age if not earlier.  So they never make it to "five". They never make it to "empathy". They never make it to the point where they can really see from another person's "point of view." Unfortunately, being able to see from another person's point of view is probably one of The Most Important abilities to have in order to be able to negotiate effectively and, therefore, to be able to resolve conflicts through non-violent means.

If "most" of the world's children are being physically or even psychologically abused, or traumatized in any number of other ways, and therefore, "most" of them never fully mature as human beings, then it is no wonder we keep looking to a parental force like a "State" and its various levels of government to "take care of us" - to resolve the conflicts we ourselves cannot resolve on our own. Unfortunately, many (if not most) of the human beings who eventually become "public servants" are no better off than the rest of us; they are being drawn from that same pool of abused children, and so there is no real benefit having "them" doing the negotiating for "us".  They are Us.

So, what is going to happen when the current governments and social political structures of the world collapse? I am sure there are still many adults who, like children, will continue to fantasize that "everything is going to be okay", but for those of us who might be just a little more capable of "seeing reality for what it is with little or no denial", then such "collapses" are cleary inevitable.  It is not a matter of "if" but "when".  For those who have never had to rely on their own interpersonal skills to resolve conflicts effectively, the future may look Very, Very, Scary.

But it doesn't have to be for two reasons: 1) There are more and more advances being made in neurobiology and psychotherapy that can help people get past their developmental blocks and start to grow again. 2) There are at least a few more people in the world today who are acting as Fully Mature Human Beings, capable of empathy and understanding, people who have learned how to resolve conflicts effectively in their interpersonal relationships and who can teach others to do the same.

However, if for any reason we continue to cling to the false beliefs that 1) There is something fundamentally "wrong" or "evil" in human nature, 2) That that "problem" or "evil" is present from the moment we are born, and therefore, 3) Something violent has to be done to us as children in order to "beat the evil out of us"... then we will never see any kind of long-lasting peace in our interpersonal relationships and by extension in the world.

It really is that simple.

If you are a person who believes as I do, that our "moral" issues may have roots in "arrested development" rather than in some fundamental "flaw" in human nature; if you believe that most conflicts (both private and public) can be resolved non-violently, then I encourage you to continue to read this blog.  I feel I am a human being who has actually Grown Up, and I have learned so many things along the way to help me become a more truly empathetic, compassionate, understanding, rational, and peaceful person. I want to share what I have learned with you, so that you might grow as well and become more confident in your own abilities to resolve conflicts with like-minded and like-hearted, fully mature, adult human beings.

Yours in Peace...